Thank you both. As I am aging, I am regularly reminded that my response to suffering (and, these days, grief), is a reflection of what I have learned from those who have gone through it before me.
“It’s never the changes we want that change everything.” Junot Diaz - ‘The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao’
… Practicing acceptance for the challenges in life as the work of this lifetime for me. Opportunities to accept and welcome the problems that appear to encourage acceptance and growth towards gratitude. Thank you Rumi. Thank you Zanny and Pa.
PS: I am struck anew at the powerful words of the title of your Substack- “The Light in our Sky”. How especially important in these times to bring awareness to and share with one another the light in our sky. Thank you.
I happened to read your provocative exchange on suffering, with your varying perspectives in my thoughts-- Zanny's perspective of suffering as a choice to learn lessons needed to evolve; Roland's perspective of suffering as a way to right the wrongs of our past lives, so as to further align with the fixed and absolute laws of the moral universe--late yesterday afternoon, right before I encountered two other perspectives on suffering, which made for quite a day of suffering for me.
One perspective was in a PBS NewsHour segment on Sugarcane, the documentary film up for an Academy Award, telling the story of the suffering experienced years ago by indigenous children in Canadian Catholic boarding schools. The children were forced to separate from their traditions and their peoples and to assimilate. The other perspective was in a 1949 film I saw later that evening, All the King's Men, based on Robert Penn Warren's eponymous 1946 novel. The film and novel tell of the rise and fall of Willie Stark, an initially principled, but eventually unprincipled, Southerner who ascends from his meager life to become governor of his state, at first serving, but then preying upon, the suffering of poor, rural citizens during the 1930's Depression. I'd read the novel in college, but I'd never seen the film. It won three Academy Awards, including Best Picture.
Neither Sugarcane nor All the King's Men appeared at first glance to thematically reflect Rumi's observation on suffering nor your perspectives on suffering. The indigenous children of Canada and the poor, rural citizens of Stark's state didn't choose suffering as a means to evolve or to align. And none could possibly be considered a well-baked loaf, no matter what definition of the metaphor Rumi had in mind. But by the end of the film, with these four perspectives circulating in my thoughts, I wondered whether there might be a way to square them.
One possible way revealed itself, among assuredly many other ways yet to come to me. That way involves outcomes that better who we are. When we choose to engage our own suffering, so as to evolve or to align, we're better in the end. When we choose to engage the suffering of others, so as to right the wrongs that have beset them, we're better in the end. Sugarcane and All the King's Men tell stories whose outcomes make for a better humanity, the films and the novel shedding light on injustices that otherwise would have remained in the dark and would never have been righted. In that sense, suffering in all four perspectives makes for a well-baked loaf, as Rumi put it. (I would have recommended a better metaphor to Rumi, by the way, but so it goes.)
A few thoughts on suffering, anyway, after a long day yesterday thinking about it.
Thanks, Bob, this is an important point we didn't address! I like the distinction you make of "engaging" suffering in order to evolve. I also interpret this Rumi quote as referring to the kinds of suffering we bring upon ourselves rather than the kinds of suffering inflicted upon us. In my case, that could be the difference between the the emotional suffering I've endured because of my unconventional life decisions and the physical suffering I've endured because of a genetic disease I was born with. Maybe I see Rumi's reference to "suffering" as something closer to "mistakes and the emotional reactions to them," whether or not that's how he meant it...
Thank you both. As I am aging, I am regularly reminded that my response to suffering (and, these days, grief), is a reflection of what I have learned from those who have gone through it before me.
“It’s never the changes we want that change everything.” Junot Diaz - ‘The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao’
Brings me back to the 'say yes to everything' quote attributed to Zen monks. I try to practice that, but sometimes bump up against a 'no!'.
Thank you, Zan and Roland, for choosing this topic. I have also thought about this over these years in my life,
… Practicing acceptance for the challenges in life as the work of this lifetime for me. Opportunities to accept and welcome the problems that appear to encourage acceptance and growth towards gratitude. Thank you Rumi. Thank you Zanny and Pa.
PS: I am struck anew at the powerful words of the title of your Substack- “The Light in our Sky”. How especially important in these times to bring awareness to and share with one another the light in our sky. Thank you.
Thank you, Janet. I know that we are plowing the same ground.
Zanny and Roland,
I happened to read your provocative exchange on suffering, with your varying perspectives in my thoughts-- Zanny's perspective of suffering as a choice to learn lessons needed to evolve; Roland's perspective of suffering as a way to right the wrongs of our past lives, so as to further align with the fixed and absolute laws of the moral universe--late yesterday afternoon, right before I encountered two other perspectives on suffering, which made for quite a day of suffering for me.
One perspective was in a PBS NewsHour segment on Sugarcane, the documentary film up for an Academy Award, telling the story of the suffering experienced years ago by indigenous children in Canadian Catholic boarding schools. The children were forced to separate from their traditions and their peoples and to assimilate. The other perspective was in a 1949 film I saw later that evening, All the King's Men, based on Robert Penn Warren's eponymous 1946 novel. The film and novel tell of the rise and fall of Willie Stark, an initially principled, but eventually unprincipled, Southerner who ascends from his meager life to become governor of his state, at first serving, but then preying upon, the suffering of poor, rural citizens during the 1930's Depression. I'd read the novel in college, but I'd never seen the film. It won three Academy Awards, including Best Picture.
Neither Sugarcane nor All the King's Men appeared at first glance to thematically reflect Rumi's observation on suffering nor your perspectives on suffering. The indigenous children of Canada and the poor, rural citizens of Stark's state didn't choose suffering as a means to evolve or to align. And none could possibly be considered a well-baked loaf, no matter what definition of the metaphor Rumi had in mind. But by the end of the film, with these four perspectives circulating in my thoughts, I wondered whether there might be a way to square them.
One possible way revealed itself, among assuredly many other ways yet to come to me. That way involves outcomes that better who we are. When we choose to engage our own suffering, so as to evolve or to align, we're better in the end. When we choose to engage the suffering of others, so as to right the wrongs that have beset them, we're better in the end. Sugarcane and All the King's Men tell stories whose outcomes make for a better humanity, the films and the novel shedding light on injustices that otherwise would have remained in the dark and would never have been righted. In that sense, suffering in all four perspectives makes for a well-baked loaf, as Rumi put it. (I would have recommended a better metaphor to Rumi, by the way, but so it goes.)
A few thoughts on suffering, anyway, after a long day yesterday thinking about it.
Thanks, as always, for the exchange,
--Bob
Thanks, Bob, this is an important point we didn't address! I like the distinction you make of "engaging" suffering in order to evolve. I also interpret this Rumi quote as referring to the kinds of suffering we bring upon ourselves rather than the kinds of suffering inflicted upon us. In my case, that could be the difference between the the emotional suffering I've endured because of my unconventional life decisions and the physical suffering I've endured because of a genetic disease I was born with. Maybe I see Rumi's reference to "suffering" as something closer to "mistakes and the emotional reactions to them," whether or not that's how he meant it...